Polish news about moron right wing actvists or politicians – continuation

On LJ group Theist Satanism user bookoflies in his post turned my attention to English version of article “MARILYN MANSON, BEHEMOTH To Be Banned From Performing In Poland? – June 16, 2007″. This information is well familiar to me. It is one of many blatantly stupid events in Poland lately, of course thanks to present “beloved” extreme right wing government.

Below is a fragment of that article:

Michal Stangret of Poland’s Metro reports that a Polish anti-sect organization calling itself the All-Polish Committee for Defence against Sects has compiled a list of artists who allegedly “promote Satanism” through their music. The list, which will be distributed to various Polish officials in July, will likely result in the artists becoming registered and getting banned from performing in Poland.

“Until now it has been unclear which bands promote these values, and therefore the authorities, unaware of the facts, have allowed these kinds of concerts to be organized, in the process giving these bands a platform from which they could spread their dangerous message. So we decided to help them,” explained Ryszard Nowak, who heads the All-Polish Committee for Defence against Sects.

According to Nowak, hundreds of bands who have performed in Poland over the course of the last 20 years have been evaluated before the final list was compiled. Just exactly which artists will be included? The document’s creators are unwilling to reveal that information just yet but it is almost certain that Polish acts BEHEMOTH and KAT, as well as American shock-rocker MARILYN MANSON, will make the cut.

“The index will not only contain metal bands, but also rock artists,” Nowak explained, before adding that the list will include any groups who promote Satanism or encourage murder and animal sacrifice.

The document will be distributed to government authorities and various other officials around the country. Some of the local governments are already looking forward to receiving it.

My commentary (here I place slightly extended version) which I posted to mentioned above group says:

This Novak is crazy fanatic. His organization isn’t linked with Catholic church or any official anti-sect organizations. Moreover, they deny having anything in common with him, recognizing him as insane, uneducated, dabbler and potentially dangerous maniac. You can read the official statement here (only in polish language). Alas there are still many naive but influential people who are stupid to give him any credit so he was able to stop few particular concerts few years ago but people weren’t fully aware at that time with whom they were dealing with. His constantly blatant stupid actions and public accusations makes him more and more ridicule so hopefully it’s just sensational news but without any consequences. I write hopefully because with present extreme right wing brainless polish government and toady, officious administration everything is possible and so the danger that any most incredibly stupid idea will hold on and will be incorporated into practice.

Funny but somehow scary...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I realize that I can be pretty ignorant myself about many topics but THAT is extreme!
I see that phrase "stupid Americans" becomes more and more popular and no wonder...
It's one of most funny videos lately :D so enjoy!

Recognizable?

In Jeremy’s blog there is a post called “strengthen your gaydar” in which he writes:

after visting san francisco, and seeing so many gay guys, i think i’m actually better and telling who’s gay and who’s not. its the subtle little things that show- even if the guy is straight-acting.

One of commentators noticed it may be just a matter of fashion and I think he’s right. Below is a comment of mine which I slightly changed and extended for the purpose of my journal.

Some gays are characteristic but many aren’t. During my study time in the group there was a talk about it and people claimed that gays are always easy recognizable by there behavior – in meaning that they talk and/or behave in feminine way. That’s funny, because they’ve never realized I’m one too… There is a small percentage who really act that way (to be honest I’m repelled sexually by such types) but most don’t. There are even those who are considered to be classical masculine types with no indication in their behavior that they would be homosexual. However, mosts are more or less between, uncharacteristic on that score, just normal regular guys… People would be hard surprised if they would knew about gays in their environment. Most live their life unaware about it and threat homosexuals like from another planet. They hear about them but don’t see them. But noticing that statistically 2 or 4 percent of population isn’t straight, even in my former High School with about 1000 learners, there could be gathered a whole class of homosexuals… but in crowds mind it would be a sensation if they were aware even of single case…
There are some characteristics but many gays look “normal” so others would never suspect a thing. However there are some preferences in fashion that could be recognizable but it’s area dependent and nothing sure.
All in all I may tell there isn’t any classical way homosexuals behave – it’s just a myth. I suspect many (from different reasons…) would wish this stereotype would be true but luckily it isn’t and I like it to stay that way.

TS BN rules discussion Part 2 on WordPress

It’s a response on Diane’s post.

Diane
The problem is that, if a comment contains even a very brief offhand borderline political remark, even this can have an extreme “red flag” effect on many of the people who have strong disagreements with the political viewpoint in question.

If someone will react that way then I agree that the discussion should be forwarded to different thread with different tag but till no one clearly tend to discuss it further I don’t see reason to forbid mentioning it right away in a first comment (again, if it’s not broader part of the post). Maybe I place general stipulation on my journal that further responses not holding to TS BN guidlines will be forwarded to new entry with a proper tag but such considerations seem rather like splitting a tiger’s skin on a living tiger. I think that every blog will have its own specific, advantages, disadvantages and own moderation issues so will see what happen. We have main guidelines and that should be sufficient for the start.
I’m personally not interested in discussing strict political topics hence I though TS-eth-pol wouldn’t be a group for me but surprisingly I found out that the most interesting discussions and subjects were lead there. I don’t mind if others are willing to follow the discussion into strict political debate if it holds on cultural level. Even on your Yahoo group people haven’t been often discussing politic of particular country but rather social, ethical problems or more general, international politic which I find interesting.

You would not necessarily have to forward the comment. I’ve suggested several alternatives. However, in my opinion, something should be done immediately in response to even the first hint of a sociopolitical digression, to mitigate the red-flag effect, rather than waiting for it to turn into a full-blown political debate.

Like I stated above: we’ll see if problems occurs.

The first step is a preventive measure: Requiring all new bloggers to engage in discussion about the rules on their blogs, as a way of trying to ensure that they all understand the rules. It probably would be a good idea to have a private Yahoo group for the bloggers as well, so that ongoing issues can be dealt with in a semi-private manner.

It’s a good idea. However in best case if the TS BN will be very successful , sacrificing so many time for each blogger will be impossible for you but bloggers private group could help us to share with others with moderation problems and how in particular case it was solved.
It would be good if at the beginning there would be more than ten willing bloggers. I hope that most still wait till everything will work properly or for situation where they wouldn’t have any other alternative. It’s also possible that quite many people hope your idea won’t work and nothing or little will change or that everything will settle somehow by itself, without doing much from their side… It is you who feel the biggest need for change. For most participants Yahoo groups are not perfect but comfortable and easy solution and they likely prefer it will stay that way.

Note the additional alternative I added at the end.

Most will probably prefer the easiest and the least labour-consuming solution but hence people will be dealing with different moderation issues the solutions will be different for each blogger. I self can’t say for sure which one I will prefer at the end.

Introduction posts were a great idea to start and roll discussion but now I can’t imagine how it would work on blog network. The big role played beginners who are excited and starve for contact with like minded people. TS BN could be some kind of challenge but for others it will be simply an obstacle and they will seek other place. Is there any reasonable idea for such potential active group or they must simply work this out?
To lave periodically an entry with invitation to write introductions as comments? Strange idea and probably not too functional. But on other hand TS BN is not to please everybody. It sifts strongly.

[...]I’ve had much better luck finding bloggers than finding co-moderators.

Because this is something new, fresh and thus exciting. Additionally being blogger moderator one have more freedom and is not so timely obliged as it would be by Yahoo group where regular receiving posts through the day is very important feature.

TS BN rules discussion on WordPress

Diane answered here on my previous post “TS Blog Network rules“. She also updated TS BN rules site and asked me to take another look on it and comment in details what points would be unclear, etc.

Diane also wrote:
“Zalbarath says he finds my draft page Theistic Satanism Blog Network: Tag topicality and other rules and guidelines to be more confusing than the rules for my Yahoo groups.

This surprises me. Zalbarath, are you sure that the blog network rules are actually more complicated, or are you just disappointed that they aren’t several orders of magnitude simpler? Offhand, I don’t see any ways that the blog network rules are more complicated than the Yahoo group rules, except that some issues are discussed as gray areas rather than as absolute black-and-white prohibitions.”

Well, I thought it through, red your updated rules site and I agree now that they’re not more complicated per se but rather more complicated than I expected. I awaited just a few very basic and obvious guidelines but it was naive from my site to think you will let it that way. I must admit that after reading your explanations Why all these rules, it all seems to be more clear and maybe I just needed some time to digest it. This time I red it really carefully, what took quite much of my time, and knowing what I should expect this time it wasn’t so confusing. I admit also that by my first response emotional factor played important role. I was disappointed by the increase of planned tags on topical division (which I was against) and detailed rules what one should post or not under particular tag. Besides, even when you would have right I would protest as well… First, your rules are worked out in years but I don’t have similar experience and I can only logically agree with them or not but it’s not the same as self experience and it tempts to make it in own way, even when it would be more troubling or/and in final I would came to similar solutions. Second, in many fields of life I act like a dictator and dislike when someone establish rules for me even when they seems to be right and, what is probably also a factor here, I have typical polish contrariness…
Anyway, after second look on your rules and thanks to extended section with explanations I tend to agree with you or maybe more understand you but it doesn’t mean I wouldn’t have differences at some points but it’s irrelevant now.
What I find worrying is that maybe first TS BN users – owner of blogs will try to keep your rules scrupulously but assuming that in the future there will be more willing persons (and not exactly pedantic ones) I can’t imagine that all of them will maintain their blogs so well as you wish to because it’s want you want – you want us to moderate our blogs so strict as you.
Jason King mentioned also lately on TS-eth-pol about time factor and I think he’s right about it. Having to moderate own blogs is maybe much less work as the entire forum/blog network but anyway for many it won’t be main activity so some discussions could stick in dead point from the lack of time or irregularity of blog owner. That was also probably one of very important factors why you haven’t found too many co-moderators.

There is another aspect (a positive one) of your TS BN. It selects blog owners to very few who are really interested and are ready to sacrifice their time to participate on that level and this probably could be your dreamed target group (or hopefully close to it) of intelligent and sane theistic Satanists but it will limit (at least at the beginning) strongly the count of participants. Now it’s just a matter of question how strong participation will be and if it would be enough to keep the whole network alive, evolving and spreading. On the other hand your blog network will in some way teach how to manage groups successfully and without trouble and if this idea will work maybe you will have some of your future successors. Like you have elsewhere noticed your forums aren’t anymore the only place where we can find intelligent and sane discussion but still they’re in many ways unique and your TS BN could still improve it. It would be like your heritage .
But I aberred from the main topic – rules. I concentrate on point 4 and 5 as other are pretty clear and I don’t have much to add.

4. Blogger discretion on comment policy.
That is a good one:
“[...]if by some miracle a post with the Theistic Satanists only or Satanists and Pagans and occultists only tag gets an inoffensive comment from a friendly Christian[...]“
A by side commentary: LOL, I wonder why many thinks you have no sense of humor? Your articles and sermons contain after all many subtle ironical remarks which I find quite entertaining – collision of your serious, scientific style with this little intrusions grant them more force, spice – but maybe that’s just me.

You wrote:
“It is okay for bloggers to make occasional spur-of-the-moment exceptions to announced comment policies. But there’s no point in announcing a comment policy if you don’t intend to enforce it at all. If you do make exceptions, then it is usually a good idea – though not required – for you to follow those exceptions with comments of your own stating explicitly that you’ve made an exception and why, so that other onlookers don’t assume they have carte blanche to break your stated rules.“
What I like is not to make too many own detailed rules (yours are more than enough complex) but solely disclaimer about possibility of making by me exceptions or decisions au currant. Each situation is different and it’s hard to foresee all possibilities and I like to feel free to act as I wish without being limited by previous stated rules. I realize that is definitely not the best behavior toward potential commentators. Solid rules give them clear view on my own policy but by that so to say I give them too much power and possibility to appeal to rules which in certain case could be limiting or not well formulated. Like I said I’m bossy person and like to have all strings in my hands as far it’s possible… but it doesn’t mean I like to misuse it. I rather let as much freedom as feasible and will act only in more extreme cases (at least in theory, how it would look like in practice I don’t know yet but definitely I don’t like to censor people in any way but realize it’s sometimes necessary). But I’m talking here rather about additional disclaimers of blog owners. Now when I understand your motives better it is easier to accept your guidelines as reasonable solution and moderate according to them.

Diane
“[...]A pingback can effectively serve as, for example, a way of adding a political response to a nonpolitical discussion without derailing the original comment thread, or a way that a Christian can respond to a discussion otherwise limited to Satanists, Pagans, and occultists, again without derailing the original thread. (But it’s a good idea to reject even pings from blogs that advocate criminal activity, or that are otherwise in flagrant violation of the terms of service.)“
I’m not sure if I understand the idea of pingback. When you responded to my post on your journal I received (automatic?) pingback WorPress mail notification about it. My question is: does this happens automatically every time somebody places a link to message (on WP) from other entry of WP member? Do I need to do something additionally besides placing a link?

5. Topics to be avoided under some tags, but allowed under others
The most complex and treacherous tag or topics would be Satanisms and society – exactly as it is with TS-eth-pol now. I’m glad you explained broadly what topics are to be placed under this tag but I don’t agree with the rule about even not mentioning some topics (I mean in comments, I assume blog owners will show more carefulness in main entries). If the main content holds the borders and just slightly (I know it’s very unspecific) goes beyond them I don’t see need to undertake any special treatment (like creating a new entry with forwarded part) but only if someone would want to go further in that subject then new thread with an appropriate tag would be set. The problem is that in many posts people tend to mention some topics which according to you belong to TS-eth-pol/Satanism and society and they do it unaware. It’s quite pissing to write a post in a good will that it holds to rules and to find out that just one sentence or short fragment violates the rule and moderator cuts the post, place it elsewhere and so on. It could be felt as humiliating or be too catchy about “stupid” rules. I think it would be sufficient to add disclaimer that socio-political topics (or particular one mentioned in post) should be avoided but if some wants really to discuss it further a new thread will be created after responding on that subject. If there would be no further interest in that direction it would be not necessary to move original comment. What I want to tell is that only by clear development of discussion in that direction it would have sense to create new entry with forwarded fragment and it’s not necessary to enforce it every time it appears. It had point on your Yahoo groups but on blogs to forward new entry every time when someone goes beyond permissible topic seems to create “empty” entries waiting for response but without having one. So act only by response not by mentioning. Maybe I’m wrong about that? It’s anyway just theorizing and one must see it in practice so maybe it’s pointless to consider it now.
Probably I won’t have too much trouble with managing tags because it’s quite possible there will be not much traffic on my journal. I don’t post too often and feel much better in answering, responding and my original posts here, as you probably noticed, lack of substance. I’m not a writer type or diary type so I don’t feel much need to start threads, write my thoughts etc. I’m used to keep it in mind, besides writing takes me too much time. Posting an entry without clear addressing seems strange to me, unnatural. I accommodate myself and my responses to the person I talk to (so I don’t like crowd, I feel much bester by personal discussion than by group discussion) and I have clearness what I should write. Maybe it will change in the future and I develop myself in other area as well?

How would you manage appropriate tagging or other moderation problems? Via personal email or maybe through forum or blog? I recall you mentioned a special yahoo group for it. Is your idea still current?

~ by zalbarath666 on June 13, 2007.

Posted in Satanism, Satanism and society, Theistic Satanism

4 Responses to “TS BN rules discussion”

1. I asked in my post about pinging system and finally I saw how it works. I posted this entry with a direct link to Diane’s post and her message received automatically a commentary with a fragment of my post so I assume she will be notified via Email too. Great feature.

   zalbarath666 said this on June 13, 2007 at 3:48 pm |

2. [...] Network: more about the draft of rulesPunkwolf on Punkwolf’s commentary on the tags and the rulesTS BN rules discussion « Zalbarath’s Notes on Theistic Satanism Blog Network: draft of rules, etc.Diane Vera on Theistic Satanism Blog [...]

   Zalbarath’s commentary « Diane Vera said this on June 14, 2007 at 1:15 am |

3. Hi Zarabeth,
   I can see its going to take a lot of getting used to the Blog comments format. I read Diane’s WordPress Blog and it is a bit disorienting with all these words everywhere. Messing looking and the left sideboard with the commennts are all run together and only stand out when you point over them and they are highlited.

   I am rather of your opinion that it may take quite some time to get others who want to put time into learning and wanting to use the Blog networks as de facto forums.

   I’ll take a look at Google’s Blogs and commenting and see if it is a bit more orderly looking.

   One thing I may want to learn is to get Blog posts and comments thru an RSS reader. They all come there and you can answer them just like getting digests or posts in your email like from Yahoo groups. Wading over these Blogs just is not all that fun or clear at first. I can see that.

   I like the Euro group on Yahoo but I haven’t visited for a while. I like your Blog here and am going to make one too and see how I like it.

   I think Diane’s long page of rules is detailed and good for guidelines in running one’s Blog as it will tend to keep peace in general in the posting dept. I think it seems pretty simple to decide what tags one posts should have. One’s own blog could be pretty lenient on the comments and there should not be that much moderation involved.

   Take care,
   Mizz

   independentsatanism said this on June 14, 2007 at 5:50 am |

4. Thanks for the comment.
   As to RSS feeds I know what is the basic idea but I’ve never used it so I’m not sure how it works in practice.
   I agree that one need a time to get use to a maintaining the blog. It took me over one week to know what and where and subscribing to Yahoo groups is a matter of few seconds and it works as I want. It’s a big advantage in comparing to blog but will see if the idea will be successful.
   I saw your blog but unfortunately I haven’t got enough time to read everything carefully but I will eventually so we’ll see you there .

Theistic Satanism Blog Network test-phase on Blogger

Diane’s Theistic Satanism Blog Network code is not fully yet but apparently in stage were we’re able to test it in practice. Diane prepared special site http://www.theisticsatanism.com/net/ were one can find “pages containing automatically updated lists of recent posts with particular tags on member blogs, one page for each of five special tags”. Now I should experiment with these tags and check does it function properly. I posted similar entry on my WordPress journal but here I want to check different tag so I matched this post with "Theistic Satanist interfaith discussion".